Were "Bull In A China Shop" and "Running Out Of Ink" cries for help?

[tvfan721]

After the arrest and departure from BNL, these 2 songs took on a completely different meaning IMO. Apparently these songs were written around 05/06 and that's when Steve's problems were beginning with his divorce, problems with BNL, etc. Bull In A China Shop is a haunting song in retrospect, it almost sounds like a contemplation of suicide. I can't remember a song where he trashes himself as much as he does in this song. It's painful to listen to.

Running Out Of Ink is less depressing but still bad, the chorus especially sounds like a cry for help. These 2 songs are definitely gems that were underrated and it's no surprise that Steve still sings these 2 songs at all of his shows. I never thought much about the meaning behind the songs when they first came out but in 2009, after hearing everything that went down in the past few years, these 2 songs have alot more meaning and make alot more sense.

[garyrulez]

I agree, tv.

[AnotherHeartbreak]

I think Bull In a China Shop is a song, like Pinch Me, where the music itself sounds happy, but the meaning is depressing. But anyways, I think your right on about all the Steve stuff. It was a tough time for him.

[Appleblossom28]

When I listen to Running out of Ink, It sounded to me like steve was giving up on everything he worked hard for. But then again I listen to One and Only and I feel it was like the beginning of the end of their friendship.

[Kawltie]

I think these must be the reasons why the BLAM era is my least favorite. A lot of the songs are some of my favorite BNL songs, but just the meanings behind them are what made me weary of it.

[TheHYPO]

Bull, at very least, was written before summer 2004. It was debuted on the Au Naturale Tour.

[tvfan721]

Bull, at very least, was written before summer 2004. It was debuted on the Au Naturale Tour.

Maybe his problems from 07/08 started back then? It's hard to say.

[TheHYPO]

Well, I recently found an article from 2008 where it was revealed that Steve was suicidal during the E2E recording sessions. So who knows, maybe Steve's problems from 2007/2008 started all the way back in 2004. You should all read this article if you haven't already, it's really sad yet well written.

http://www.onthevig.com/2008/07/18/the-eternal-sadness-of-steven-page-2/

First of all, it's a nitpick, but it's a pet peave of mine; this is not an article, it's a blog post. I know it's a tedious point to make, but "article" tends to imply at least some sort of fact checking and attempt to be accurate has occured, and on a blog post, that's often not the case.

But more importantly, if you read it, it indicates that the blogger saw BNL during the E2E tour and he told a story of his depression during the recording of MYSD (and it's known he was also during the BOAPS era). He had a lot of issues around that time and from what I have recall reading, he tried a lot of things to deal with it. He gave a sullen intro to War On Drugs during every show that tour, and I don't think that necessarily indicates one way or another whether he was depressed at the time. But the blogger talks about MYSD, not E2E.

[tvfan721]

First of all, it's a nitpick, but it's a pet peave of mine; this is not an article, it's a blog post. I know it's a tedious point to make, but "article" tends to imply at least some sort of fact checking and attempt to be accurate has occured, and on a blog post, that's often not the case.

But more importantly, if you read it, it indicates that the blogger saw BNL during the E2E tour and he told a story of his depression during the recording of MYSD (and it's known he was also during the BOAPS era). He had a lot of issues around that time and from what I have recall reading, he tried a lot of things to deal with it. He gave a sullen intro to War On Drugs during every show that tour, and I don't think that necessarily indicates one way or another whether he was depressed at the time. But the blogger talks about MYSD, not E2E.

I know. I just edited it literally seconds before you made this post.

[Shardith]

I know. I just edited it literally seconds before you made this post.

Your post is timestamped as edited three minutes after TheHYPO made his.

[tvfan721]

Your post is timestamped as edited three minutes after TheHYPO made his.

Well I don't know what to say. When I clicked "submit reply" and my post was edited, TheHYPO's post was already there. He must have posted his post as I was editing mine. All I can say is, when I finally realized my error in that blog, TheHYPO's reply hadn't appeared yet. Sorry anyways though, it wasn't intentional. I'd really like to get back to discussing these 2 songs because I think out of all the Steve songs, these 2 are definitely some of the more powerful ones.

[TheHYPO]

Well I don't know what to say. When I clicked "submit reply" and my post was edited, TheHYPO's post was already there. He must have posted his post as I was editing mine. All I can say is, when I finally realized my error in that blog, TheHYPO's reply hadn't appeared yet. Sorry anyways though, it wasn't intentional. I'd really like to get back to discussing these 2 songs because I think out of all the Steve songs, these 2 are definitely some of the more powerful ones.

No worries. Everyone makes mistakes. It's about correcting erroneous information, not about chastising anyone for posting it.

I'm no doctor, but I suspect that from heresay and observation over the years, this kind of depression is the kind of thing that isn't really curable. It's the kind of thing that will flare up from time to time, in various levels of severiy, and you have to learn what works for you in managing it when it does arise. I'm fairly sure that some of Steve's writing comes from experiences with depression. However, I think it's presumptuous to speculate any further than that in terms of why he has made any of his life decisions (as the blogger seemed to).

[jojomc]

"Bull in a China Shop" is older than 2004 -- Steven played it @ a solo show in NYC 12/03...

[Belyha]

Well, first of all, I must say to tvfan that even though I do not usually agree w/you, I do appreciate that you keep conversation going and ask interesting questions...

It is hard to balance what we know, feel, and think about everthing and it is easy to read into every nuance in every word of every song. If we tried to count all the references to things depressing and suicidal in the music, you would go all the way back to Gordon and we would be here all day...:(

BIACS- to me speaks of self-loathing, or if that is too strong a term, at least toward anger that is inwardly directed, but also outwardly- where you and you alone are the villain of the piece-while ROOI is about feeling used and spit out and let down, more of things brought on not only by yourself, but by others as well.. But both seem to speak of cynicism and ennui and being unsure of your direction and are very sad, especially in retrospect.

[Shardith]

Well, tvfan, I agree that you did start an interesting topic. Sorry for seeming a bit nitpicky myself.

I just looked up the lyrics again for both and find that BIACS is credited not only to Steve, but to Ed, Jim and Tyler, and that ROOI is co-written by Steve and Ed. Is it fair to assume that all the emotion in these two songs comes solely from Steve?

[tvfan721]

I thought BIACS was written only Steve and Ed, didn't know Jim and Tyler helped out.

Whoever sings the song is the one who started the idea and had the most control over it. Take the song "Leave" for example. Yeah, Steve co-wrote it apparently but so what? That song is pure Ed and it's about his brother's death. Bull In A China Shop can be seen in the same way.

[garyrulez]

I don't agree that whoever sings the song is who came up with the idea- Adrift and Sound of Your Voice would suggest otherwise.

I do, however, agree that whatever the liner notes are for Bull in a China Shop, that the lyrics are all Steve.

[Belyha]

I would imagine that the process probably depends on the song and the situation at the time- some songs seem more overtly one person over the others, and you can kind of "tell" based on following them... I don't suppose there would ever be a way to quantify a collaboration- you know it might just be a bit of melody or a phrase that helped someone else out when they were stuck on a lyric- but it might have been that tiny thing that was the ingredient that brought the whole song together, so you can't put a number or percentage on that.. I just try to get my recommended daily allowance and enjoy.:)

[TheHYPO]

While it's true that there are issues with Kevin and Jim songs, when it comes to Ed and Steve, it's almost always "he who sings it, came up with it", at least in the last 15 years. f you want to get technical, it's even stronger to suggest that he who sings it solo, came up with it; and it's one Steve has frequently played solo.

If I recall correctly, the liners for Bull are Ed/Steve. Tyler's only credit was on Why Say Anything Nice, if I do recall.

[Shardith]

If I recall correctly, the liners for Bull are Ed/Steve. Tyler's only credit was on Why Say Anything Nice, if I do recall.

Thanks for clearing that up! :D

[squirtle]

There's another song Stevie P. wrote called War on Drugs that most people believe is about a cocaine problem. Um, hell no. I've learned that Steve
used to take prescription pills and often the members were wondering whether "it was Steve talking to them or the drug".

Anyway, tv, I never thought of it that way, riveting tale chap (._.)b

[Belyha]

I am throwing up in my mouth a little right now.