Songs You Like Better Live and Vice Versa

[AnotherHeartbreak]

So Im sure we all have songs that we like live better than the studio version, and vice versa, so lets share em!

For songs I like live better than in-studio:
Light Up My Room- Just such a beautiful song. Very emotional, and the lyrics are amazing. I don't even think the studio version compares to the live version.
The Old Apartment- It just kicks so much ass live. The studio version is great, but live you really get that rockin' vibe!
Ordinary- I just feel so much power in this song live. In Springfield, Ed hit the chorus note so well and powerfully it almost blew my eardrum! I love it.

And now for songs I like better in-studio than live:
Golden Boy- While it is a great song, you can just tell how uncomfortable Ed sounds singing it live. It doesn't sound terrible, but I think it's one they should stay away from live. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaapu6rIuMM

[TheHYPO]

So Im sure we all have songs that we like live better than the studio version, and vice versa, so lets share em!

For songs I like live better than in-studio:
Light Up My Room- Just such a beautiful song. Very emotional, and the lyrics are amazing. I don't even think the studio version compares to the live version.
The Old Apartment- It just kicks so much ass live. The studio version is great, but live you really get that rockin' vibe!
Ordinary- I just feel so much power in this song live. In Springfield, Ed hit the chorus note so well and powerfully it almost blew my eardrum! I love it.

And now for songs I like better in-studio than live:
Golden Boy- While it is a great song, you can just tell how uncomfortable Ed sounds singing it live. It doesn't sound terrible, but I think it's one they should stay away from live. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaapu6rIuMM


I have to say that I really do enjoy the studio atmosphere the album Old Apt has (the radio edit also more than the BOAPS version). The live has had its moments (they change arrangements at times which sometimes helps songs and sometimes hurts them), but I think the only think live about Old apartment that really caught me was back ten years ago when Ed used to leap around at certain points of the song, jumping in time with the music.

So far, I agree; Golden boy has been a vocal issue, and I think the album is produced very well. I am 50-50 about Ordinary. It's amazing live, but Ed has to hit those chorus notes for it to be that amazing.

I think this could be a long post because there are SO many songs. I'd say that most songs for me win in the live category - I'm a live guy, and I find that a) with more performances the songs evolve into better sounding songs b) the live dynamics from quiet to loud make most songs more interesting and (for uptempo songs) more bouncable and c) seeing the performers always captures my interest.

I think my #1 best live song is Intermittently as Steve was doing it in the last few years where Steve was belting the final verse an octave above where the album version had it. It was simply amazing. The Boston E4E tour version is 100% my favourite live track that I own (which I may contradict at some later point, even within this post, since I have so damn many live tracks).

I haven't enjoyed Shoebox live in a long time - ever since Kevin went to an old Organ sound on it, and Ed began playing it on a twangy Strat. I haven't liked that sound for the song. I've always preferred Long Way Back Home on the album simply due to the awesome slide guitar and great harmonies there. Big Bang is one that I love to hear live for the energy, but I think the recorded version sounds significantly better (esp. w/ Steve doing the harmonies). With the greatest of respect to him, I tend to prefer Kevin's album tracks better than the average live performance. He has some awesome live performances, but often he either doesn't sing it as well, or he actually makes improvisational choices to change melodies or rhythms that I don't enjoy as much as the original. I do love seeing him do those songs live, but in terms of listening to a live track or the studio track, I often prefer the studio.

Almost everything else has me on the lives (unless I'm forgetting other bad-livers).
When I fall has always been miles above in the live over the album - I am very anti- recordings that are slightly detuned from the proper tuning, as the album version is, and I don't think the album version is recorded very well anyway. These Apples is another great live rocker where the album version is a bit hollow. The piano outro to What a Good Boy alone was enough to make the live of that song a notch above.

Spider in My Room and In the Drink are awesome live - though especially when Andy can be a part of it through BNL or Bros. Creeggan. Easy and Another Postcard are both singles I really didn't like but I actually could enjoy live because the monotony of the songs got a more bouncable beat and the songs built towards the end. The live harmonies on postcard really added to the song as well. Maybe Katie also got a good rock treatment live. The live (acousticier) version of Next Time that was done live was more enjoyable to me than the album.

Bull in a China shop wins live simply because I hate those trumpets in the album version.

[Shardith]

I like just about every song live over the album version, because that means I'm at a show seeing our boys! While you can tweak and poke everything to sound perfect in the studio, I'm a fan of the unpredictability of a live show. I'm also a sucker for a simple vocal harmony. Maybe that's why I'm a fan of the new "Sound of Your Voice" live arrangement over the album version because it's simple with an acapella harmony. (I'm not saying it's "better", I just have a soft spot for the style.)

Hypo, I'm curious, what are you hearing exactly in "When I Fall" that tells you the album version is slightly detuned from proper tuning?

[kgraves6]

I agree - what exactly are you hearing detuned? The live version is SLOWER - tempo-wise, but no change in key.

As for These Apples... who else, besides Ed, have you EVER heard play a banjo part on an acoustic guitar? Surely not any bluegrass/country banjoist.

My personal preferences live are the way Sound of Your Voice is done now - LOVE IT! and going really old with when they used to do Scared Song before Andy left. NOTHING I have ever heard could beat those bass solos. ( If you've never heard one... they were notorious for drowning out everything... sometimes even to the point where you'd almost swear there was an earthquake going on because the whole venue would shake from it.)

As for studio, simply because they can't be re-created the same live... Why say anthing nice? and Rule the World with Love. Jim is one AMAZING string player.

[TheHYPO]

I agree - what exactly are you hearing detuned? The live version is SLOWER - tempo-wise, but no change in key.

As for These Apples... who else, besides Ed, have you EVER heard play a banjo part on an acoustic guitar? Surely not any bluegrass/country banjoist.

My personal preferences live are the way Sound of Your Voice is done now - LOVE IT! and going really old with when they used to do Scared Song before Andy left. NOTHING I have ever heard could beat those bass solos. ( If you've never heard one... they were notorious for drowning out everything... sometimes even to the point where you'd almost swear there was an earthquake going on because the whole venue would shake from it.)

As for studio, simply because they can't be re-created the same live... Why say anthing nice? and Rule the World with Love. Jim is one AMAZING string player.


It is not a change in "key" per sé. It is still in... [calculates] E(?) but it's a little flat. Not so much as to be D#, but enough that if you play BOAPS When I call, and then play a tuned guitar or piano, you'll notice that you sound sharp, or the song sounds flat (which it is). If you listen to the Rock Spec vs. the BOAPS, even in the intro, you can hear the slightly lowered tuning.

To put it another technical way, instruments are typically tuned with the note 'A' being 440hz frequency (frequency determines the pitch or note you hear). Wikipedia trivia teaches me that this wasn't always the case; eg, the Austrian government reccomended in 1885 that it be 435hz. The American music industry standardized 440 in 1926. Thanks Wikipedia. (Interesting article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_pitch_standards_in_Western_music)). So while a G#/Ab would be 415.30hz with a 440 A, (ie: if you played the song a semi-tone down, or one capoed one fret lower, your "A" would be 415hz instead of 440hz, in the case of When I Fall it's probably more like 430 or so. If I were at home, I could tell you exactly, but I'm not. The first note of the song (guitar riff) is an E, I believe; so if you find a proper E (such as on a guitar tuning website) audio and play it over the first note of the song, You may be able to hear the difference.

I also find the guitar playing in the album version less inspired than the live. I agree that SOYV is fantastic live now. It's perfect style for Kevin voice, but I think I consider it an alternate version rather than a 'better' version than Steve's, which I also like. Similarly, I'm fond of both rhythm-versions of Life in a Nutshell (and I don't think I've ever heard the story behind how that song managed to acquire two completed different rhythms that the band still alternates between.)

[Shardith]

It is not a change in "key" per sé. It is still in... [calculates] E(?) but it's a little flat. Not so much as to be D#, but enough that if you play BOAPS When I call, and then play a tuned guitar or piano, you'll notice that you sound sharp, or the song sounds flat (which it is). If you listen to the Rock Spec vs. the BOAPS, even in the intro, you can hear the slightly lowered tuning.

To put it another technical way, instruments are typically tuned with the note 'A' being 440hz frequency (frequency determines the pitch or note you hear). Wikipedia trivia teaches me that this wasn't always the case; eg, the Austrian government reccomended in 1885 that it be 435hz. The American music industry standardized 440 in 1926. Thanks Wikipedia. (Interesting article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_pitch_standards_in_Western_music)). So while a G#/Ab would be 415.30hz with a 440 A, (ie: if you played the song a semi-tone down, or one capoed one fret lower, your "A" would be 415hz instead of 440hz, in the case of When I Fall it's probably more like 430 or so. If I were at home, I could tell you exactly, but I'm not. The first note of the song (guitar riff) is an E, I believe; so if you find a proper E (such as on a guitar tuning website) audio and play it over the first note of the song, You may be able to hear the difference.



By any chance are you one of those people that can hear a pitch difference of less than a semi-tone, aka someone who has "perfect pitch"? I had to listen to the intro to these two versions back to back several times to catch it. The difference is very subtle. What is the benefit of a recording that is "detuned", anyway?

I definitely noticed Ed's vocals sounding "younger" :D

[kgraves6]

440 "A" is the standard - yes ( in France it's a 445..) and at the time Handel wrote the Messiah the standard was a 415 (as you said g#/a-flat) which means all those screaming B-flats in the "Hallelujah Chorus" are really only As.
There is no such thing as "perfect pitch". How can a pitch be perfect if we can't even settle on what frequency it should be? There is only relative pitch ( a pitch is identified for you and by interval relation you can find any other pitch.... i.e. Ed non-chalantly dropping a G on the guitar for Steve so he could find the E to start Break Your Heart ) and pitch relation ( hearing a pitch and knowing what it is... i.e. an open string on a guitar and knowing which one it is).
As for When I Fall... try using an F. The riff is F - b-flat - C - D - C - b-flat - A - G- C- F.- and remember sometimes things are recorded at different speeds and that has an effect too.. I used to have a recording of a song on cassette that played an ENTIRE semi-tone sharp from the actual key of the song. Ironically, the cassette key matched the sheet music, but not the live performance on video.

My pitch relation skills aren't what they used to be, but I figure out several keys of songs years ago including Break Your Heart.. (which is in G) the first time I ever heard it performed live..13 months before the album came out.

I'm not trying to pick an argument or anything and it's great to have the resource(s) you used to figure out what you have. Being a musician ( with a Bachelors degree in Music ) has its benefits.

BNL has a habbit of occasional use of unusual keys for their songs, but like most, they are primarily centered around keys that are most comfortable for both the singers ( vocal ranges ) and playing the chord progressions on guitar ( capo or not ). One usually prefers to not have to play odd chords(unless you count Ed's -Pinch Me ) Mosat of BNL's songs are centered around the Key of B-flat.(Million Dolllars, You Run Away, The Wrong Man Was Convicted to name a few.) Box Set is in E-flat, Jane is in A, A is in G. And one must keep in mind that some guitarists don't use the standard tuning of E-A-D-G-B-E, they tune the low E down to a D. In addition, you also need to remember they aren't perfect and are comfortable with not being perfect. Why else do they make fun of Ed needing to "sing in tune"?

[TheHYPO]

By any chance are you one of those people that can hear a pitch difference of less than a semi-tone, aka someone who has "perfect pitch"? I had to listen to the intro to these two versions back to back several times to catch it. The difference is very subtle. What is the benefit of a recording that is "detuned", anyway?

I definitely noticed Ed's vocals sounding "younger" :D

I have no idea on earth why they detuned. Either they tuned Ed's guitar and Jim's bass to an instrument (whatever instrument it might have been) and it was unnoticabley detuned (are there keyboards in that one though? those are not typically out of tune unintentionally), they could have slowed the tape down a bit which would also cause detuning, or it could have been intentional for effect. They could have liked something in the demo and it was played on a tuned down guitar, because there were no other instruments and Ed didn't tune it with a tuner. I really have no idea w/o asking the band or maybe the producer (I forget was it MPW?)

I don't think what you just described is "perfect pitch". I could be wrong though. I think perfect pitch means you hear a note and know it's off key or for a singer it usually means you can sing and it's on-key without needing a reference. But I wouldn't necessarily notice the detune unless it was right after a properly tuned song or note. I MIGHT notice it in some circumstances (IE: If BNL plays a song I've heard many times and at that performance its detuned, I notice. In the Edmonton concert You Run Away, Ed's guitar is tuned a little low. I noticed that in the intro when I first heard it, but I wasn't sure; I compared it to the album to be sure.

With respect to kgraves, I think there is such thing as perfect pitch - perfect may be the wrong word, but the concept that someone can walk into a room and just sing an A (if they have been trained in America under a 440 A, then that is what they would sing) is still an ability that some have and some done. Whether you think "Perfect" pitch is the right term is more a matter of theology.

I wouldn't say I have perfect pitch, but what I effectively can do is recall certain songs (and some work and some don't for me) of which I know the first chord or note, and then sing or hum that note as a pitch. If you ask me to produce an A, I would hear in my head "It's been..." and know the next chord is an A, and be able to hum that. However, for me personally, occasionally I get it right on, but more often I could easily be sharp or flat some times by maybe a quarter tone (half a note), or on a bad day even a semi-tone (one note). If I've heard any other music played in tune shortly because I can use that reference to set the proper pitch and be a lot closer. Similarly, I use Shoebox for D (also B and G). From those notes I can just go up or down the scale to work out where most notes are (I could probably figure out songs for the other notes, but I have never bothered)

kgraves, I'm not sure what you mean by "Most of BNL's songs are centered around the Key of B-flat" - centered meaning in the area of, or meaning most songs are in that key? I toss the key of songs into the piano chord files I post on http://www.rockitoldschool.com/ and just going through them, I don't see any prevailance of B-flat keys. Of the 68 songs I have done (which admittedly is only a fraction of the 170ish BNL songs out there, G, A, E and D majors seem prevailant. I only found one Bb (straw hat), Old Apartment and Brian Wilson (ie: songs in the key of G at capo 3). In fact, while Wrong man is a song capoed 3 and is, I think, in Bb, Million$ and You Run Away are both Capo 2 songs in the key of A. BNL songs are in a wide range of keys (there are favourites, but it's still spread mostly around a half dozen keys, not one).

[kgraves6]

As a piano major, it helps watching Kevin play.

[NFede14]

"Off the Hook" used to be absolutely incredible live...the playing would just get violent and inspired.

"Break Your Heart" was also better live...just find that video from the stunt tour on youtube.

[TheHYPO]

"Off the Hook" used to be absolutely incredible live...the playing would just get violent and inspired.

"Break Your Heart" was also better live...just find that video from the stunt tour on youtube.

Violent and inspired - reminds me - Just a Toy was miles ahead live. Boston - E4E tour is my favourite recording of it. Also love the live intro to Unfinished, though the layers of vocals make the studio version really awesome that the live can't quite match

[kgraves6]

"Break Your Heart" was also better live...just find that video from the stunt tour on youtube.

From the Stunt tour?? I liked it better before Andy left.. When it got to the bridge, Steve would hit the B on "..time.. and.. now" and flip the G above it like it was just a throw-away. (Way to easy to do sounding.)

To the HYPO: sorry .. usually Million Dollars ended up that it led into b-flat ( Talk to The Hand, Au Naturale ) for Steve's little add-on song to be in b-flat. The problem I have is that I can hear and see the piano, but I have to see the guitar to know. I cannot hear what notes a guitar is playing. Any other instrument ( i.e. the trombone in Hello City, the bassoon in WYAAM ) I can hear, just not guitar. Never have been able to.

[Shardith]

With respect to kgraves, I think there is such thing as perfect pitch - perfect may be the wrong word, but the concept that someone can walk into a room and just sing an A (if they have been trained in America under a 440 A, then that is what they would sing) is still an ability that some have and some done. Whether you think "Perfect" pitch is the right term is more a matter of theology.

Yes, this is what I meant by asking you if you had "perfect pitch". I apologize for explaining it badly, I should have been more specific with my question.

I wouldn't say I have perfect pitch, but what I effectively can do is recall certain songs (and some work and some don't for me) of which I know the first chord or note, and then sing or hum that note as a pitch. If you ask me to produce an A, I would hear in my head "It's been..." and know the next chord is an A, and be able to hum that. However, for me personally, occasionally I get it right on, but more often I could easily be sharp or flat some times by maybe a quarter tone (half a note), or on a bad day even a semi-tone (one note). If I've heard any other music played in tune shortly because I can use that reference to set the proper pitch and be a lot closer. Similarly, I use Shoebox for D (also B and G). From those notes I can just go up or down the scale to work out where most notes are (I could probably figure out songs for the other notes, but I have never bothered)

When I recall songs in my head, I hear them in the right key. I can be off sometimes but no more than a semitone. When I was studying for music theory and we had an intervals exam, I seemed to have a great recall for "relative pitch" but there is no way in heck I can pluck an A = 440 out of thin air.

[TheHYPO]

To the HYPO: sorry .. usually Million Dollars ended up that it led into b-flat ( Talk to The Hand, Au Naturale ) for Steve's little add-on song to be in b-flat.

With the greatest of respect, I think you are off by one again. Million dollars on those shows/tours ends with D-E [I'd be rich] A-D-A before going into Steve's belt at D-E-A [timpani hits] which usually goes into some combination of the chords from the song which include F#m-D-E-A (sometimes closing with a Dmaj-Dmin modulation for dramatic effect)

The song is in A unless I'm missing something greatly. :)

[kgraves6]

With the greatest of respect, I think you are off by one again. Million dollars on those shows/tours ends with D-E [I'd be rich] A-D-A before going into Steve's belt at D-E-A [timpani hits] which usually goes into some combination of the chords from the song which include F#m-D-E-A (sometimes closing with a Dmaj-Dmin modulation for dramatic effect)

The song is in A unless I'm missing something greatly. :)

Guss that's what I get for spending more time in Wind Ensemble (tuning to b-flat ) than in orchestra (tuning to an A). Ahh well...C'est La Vie!

(These days I spend more time in choir..and not doing much playing.. if I do, I usually pull out my autoharp and eff.. around on it.) I used to be able to pull any pitch out of thin air, but I guess I've been away from that for too long. Ironically, the choir I sing in does alot of a capella singing.

[cjthedj53]

"Break Your Heart" was also better live...just find that video from the stunt tour on youtube.

The performance on "Barenaked In America" is astounding. Some artists write amazing lyrics but put no emotion into them - and others get overly-emotional about lyrics that mean nothing to the audience at a concert. Steven blends the songwriting and emotion so well in concert that even though I've never been able to relate to the song, I get really, really emotional watching that performance. Next time I see Steven perform solo, if he's taking requests from the audience, I'm going to request that one. My one retrospective regret of seeing his tiny solo show in Pittsburgh was that I DIDN'T shout that out when he asked the crowd for requests.